WWJD / WWSD
I save up online comics in Google Reader and read a month’s worth at once because I’ve always preferred reading comics in compilations. To provide a light-hearted alternative to my religion-themed previous post, here are two October delights from Sinfest: read this one first, then this. I love the third panel of the second strip.
That guy does such great hair. Up there with Watterson.
Hey michelle,
Sorry for this really random question. Im heading overseas to read law after my NS. the question is, where should i read law? i have been contemplating aussie, since aussie is now recognised and way cheaper than and way nearer to singapore. Are there intrinsic value differences between an aussie law degree and a uk one? appreciate your help
yonanz: Sorry, I don’t think I can be of much help here. I don’t know anything about the Australian system of legal education, or the experience of studying there. I can only highly, highly recommend choosing London and UCL. :)
Cost considerations are of course an issue in favour of Australia. But if you ask me, proximity to Singapore is not. You can go holiday in Australia any time from Singapore. Being in the UK, and able to explore the whole of Europe from there? To me that was priceless.
haha. My grades aint that superb enough to get me a ticket into UCL. If i were to go to UK, i would have to settle for universities a notch lower than UCL, such as leicester, liverpool, queen mary etc. so i was wondering, is it really worth the money?does studying in a “top” uk university bring advantage over studying in a lesser university? My friend told me that if i were to pursue an overseas education ,either i get a scholarship, or (if im paying) i apply for the top schools. but to me it seems that a degree in say, leicester is no less recognisable (in SG) than a degree in LSE or UCL, what do you reckon?
James: Hmm, but Watterson’s hair achievements were different. I regard the best Watterson hair as when Hobbes cut Calvin’s, and when Calvin did his hair like his dad’s.
yonanz: I really wish I could be more helpful but my experience is limited to London and UCL, and it’s been a while since I graduated (in 2002). Can you clarify what your options are? Are they:
(i) studying in medium-level uni in UK;
(ii) studying in medium-level uni in Aus; or
(iii) studying in NUS?
What I will say is that unless you’re going to Oxbridge, the big reason to study law overseas isn’t academic, it’s all the *other* fun you get from living overseas on your own. You will get a perfectly good legal education in NUS. (I don’t personally like NUS’s teaching style – too much crammed into one lecture, too little time and space for exploring of ideas – as compared to UCL’s, but that’s just preference.)
So frankly, when you’re trying to decide whether spending the money is worth it, you really need to think about whether the *non-academic* experience you will get is worth it. Academically, as long as you go somewhere with a decent teaching (as opposed to overall) rating and are fairly motivated, you will do fine.
If you ask me about intangible stuff like how a degree from these mid-level unis is perceived in SG, I honestly don’t know. My guess is that levels of recognition are probably not 100% equal, but what’s far more important to a law firm is the actual impression they get from you when you’re doing your pupillage with them.
Thanks Michelle.
“i) studying in medium-level uni in UK;
(ii) studying in medium-level uni in Aus; or
(iii) studying in NUS?”
I have applied to NUS previously and was rejected, hence precluding NUS as a possible option.
The problem here is I have no idea whether i should go to Australia or UK (the reasons as aforesaid). although you might have little knowledge of Aussieland, I reckoned that advice from you, based on your 4 years of study experience in UK, might serve me well.
The reason for my being pragmatic is that I absolutely do not wish to sink half a million into an overseas education that might fail me ultimately. My guess is that you have had so much fun in UCL, and you were after all under a scholarship,and as such your view is highly limited. I am from a middle income family and the stakes are extremely high, so naturally, all the “fun” experiences would be relegated to the bottom of my list of concerns. I badly need to know whether a law education in a lesser instituition such as leiscester, as opposed to, say, UCL, will compromise a good career. So the overall picture is clear : Whether spending so much money will eventually pay off. I am not on a scholarship and my parents will have to work their asses off. So, yup every dollars and cents count, and i would like to get every cents’ worth.
Sorry if i begin to irritate you. its just so so hard to seek this kind of advice. And moreover SG law blogs are far and few between, and those who would care to even respond are even fewer! Thank you anyway..
For what it’s worth, I’ve lived in Sydney and in London, and cost of living in the former is much, much less than in the latter. Possibly less than in Leicester too, I would venture, and the beaches in Sydney are much nicer than those in Leicester.
This advice might be a bit of a waste of time, but you never know. I do know (having worked at Queen Mary for a bit) that the Law dept there is highly regarded – probably above and beyond the uni as a whole (though there are some other stellar departments there). Also, you would potentially have the enjoyment side that Michelle obviously experienced in London close to hand as well (which is important). Though you would be living in Mile End which I personally think is a hellhole.
My cousin who is Indian has also recently come over to the UK to study Law and is currently in his second year. He had applied to Cambridge, Kings, Queen Mary and others. He didn’t get into Cambridge, but he did get into Kings and he seems to be doing well there. They also have some kind of scheme where the top students in the year get to do a year at Columbia too, so if you fancied working your pants off and ended up doing well, that would potentially be another string to your bow. My uncle is working a lot to fund him through college in London and yes, it’s a bit of a struggle but I honestly believe you always get by and get through if you really want to.
My knowledge of Australia is primarily restricted to memories of Neighbours though, so I’m not much help there.
yonanz: Just because you’ve been rejected from NUS once, does that mean you can’t apply again for the next intake? How about SMU?
“My guess is that you have had so much fun in UCL, and you were after all under a scholarship,and as such your view is highly limited.”
Sorry, I don’t get what you mean here. What need is there for you to “guess” when I’ve already made clear from the start that my view is highly limited since my experience was only in UCL? I’ve never pretended my view is worth anything, I’m just trying to help since you’re here begging.
“I badly need to know whether a law education in a lesser instituition such as leiscester, as opposed to, say, UCL, will compromise a good career. So the overall picture is clear : Whether spending so much money will eventually pay off.”
Look, it’s great that you’re so concerned about spending your parents’ hard-earned money but your future career does not depend AT ALL on the answers to the questions you are asking. As I said, you just have to pick somewhere with a good teaching record, and in an environment where you think you will be content to live and study for 3-4 yrs, apply yourself well to your studies when you get there, and do the same to your legal career when you start it. A good attitude and hard work will take you much further in your career (assuming you don’t lack aptitude) than some intangible thing like where you went to law school. There is a terrible shortage of lawyers in Singapore – let’s assume your worst fears are true and when you apply to a very prestigious firm, they give a UCL grad the job instead. So what? There are plenty of other good firms where you can make a good career for yourself, and where you might quite possibly have a happier life.
“I am from a middle income family and the stakes are extremely high, so naturally, all the “fun” experiences would be relegated to the bottom of my list of concerns.”
I don’t really know what qualifies as “middle” and “not middle” income, but my civil servant mum single-handedly funded my sister and brother’s UK educations in the days when the pound was more than 3x the Singapore dollar, and as far as I’m aware they still got to have lots of fun. Again, I can only speak for London but one of its huge, huge plus points for me was the multitude of ways you can have fun there for free.
Ok..thanks all.
I am a little fightened. I have no idea how a harmless innocuous little question from me actually sounded so hostile to you..as though Im here picking an argument. You gave me more questions than answers in fact, and I feel so uncomfortable. Its feels as though this whole thing is an argument of some sort and, look at the kind of tone you carry in your replies. Im not here, for goodness sake, to pick a fight, to challenge you! Im really here to just ask some really innocent questions. why do you have to be so denigrating as to label me as someone who is “here begging” and so skeptical to the fact that I belong to a middle income family? Is this even a point of argument? Here i am trying to include abit of my family background so you guys can better help me, yet is it even neccessary to doubt the “validity” of my “middle income-ness”? What could have been more helpful here would be telling me some of the “ways you can have fun there for free” and perhaps giving me some prudent advice on how to mitigate the high cost of living, instead of running me down like im some sort of ill-intentioned troublemaker.
I don’t understand where I have offended you. I don’t understand why people get so worked up easily. I don’t understand why innocent questions could be mistaken for an act of aggression and hostility. I dont understand why, instead of being more helpful, you have to resort to such skeptical and threatening tone to “answer my question”.
I know you are a debater, but michelle this is NOT A DEBATE. It seems to me like you are rebutting me point by point and you just tear my little question to bits. All i wanted was some financial advice and a little bit of personal opinions on whether a degree in a lesser instituition is just as worthy as one in a more prestigious one. I understand that you might not be able to provide “Answers” to “intangible” questions but hey! I am asking for YOUR OPINION. Im not here asking for textbook answers. Im not here to judge the right from wrong. In fact Im more than glad if my little humble question is able to generate a fair bit of useful comments, which I can consolidate and take into account when making my decision for further studies.
Why do you have to come down so hard on me as though Im challenging you or holding a debate with you? If you dont want to answer my question, then don’t. I will take my question eslewhere then..don’t scold me for asking a neutral question.
And in any case, just take a look at Matt and Sharmila’s previous comments, and ask yourself, why couldnt you have commented and conducted yourself in a similar fashion? Why do you have to lash out and berate at me like Im some sort of net ruffian? Just don’t understand. The kind of tone you have should be reserved for people who come in and screams ” All UCL Grads suck!!!” and then you would come to defend such gratuituous statements. Not someone who comes in and says “Sorry for this really random question.”, which ends with “Appreciate your help”, and every questions I pose almost always start or end with a gracious “thanks”. I really appreciate you taking time off to give me some of your opinions and advices. Really disappointing the way you retorted back to me.
Mich: Heya! London’s brilliant though today’s wet and cold. Would greatly appreciate you letting me know where the parts I can enjoy myself for free are given that I have limited Internet access outside of work at this point in time, and also, the idea of paying over half my salary in rent is scary! My musical experience in London was definitely way more limited than yours… though you might be envious at the fact that at this point in time, I stay 8 minutes’ walk away from Farringdon and opted to miss Scratch Perverts and Pendulum playing on the same night.
Yonanz: First off, I’m a friend of Michelle’s so take this as you will. The way I see it, Michelle has – rather patiently – done her best to offer you advice the first two times you asked. For you to respond that her “view is highly limited” because she enjoyed her time at university, and horror of horrors, her family didn’t have to finance her education, well, it does come off as rather condescending and dismissive in spite of your thanks and appreciation.
For what it’s worth, I studied at LSE the same time Michelle studied at UCL. I had a great time at my university, and quite a few of my friends did as well. I did not do Law, but did hear from some others that the Law faculty at other institutions such as Nottingham was better than what was offered at LSE.
When I was selecting my university, I had the same cost concerns you did, given that my family was financing my education. I had a choice between UCL, York and LSE and had decided on York initially because of the cost, but my mother persuaded me to go to LSE instead, because she felt the overall experience would be much better. And she was right. I have never been to York, and cannot comment for a fact on whether I would have had the same amount of fun and growing up as I did in London, but I just know in my heart that it wouldn’t have been the same. So while the “fun” experiences may not matter to you at all right now, I have to say that these are as much a part of university as the academic education you will receive. And it will play as big a part in your getting a job as the quality of your degree because your non-academic experiences are what will distinguish you from all the other candidates out there.
I know it’s a lot to think about especially when you’ve never gone through anything like this before, but, as Michelle said, as long as you’re willing to work hard – and play hard as well – you’ll go far in both studies and career.
Oh. Thanks dominique for your advice, and thanks for explaining (on behalf of her) the possible reasons that had rankled her nerves.
Let me set the record straight. For “view is highly limited”, I did not mean it in a derogatory sense. And I certainly don’t want these few words to predominate what is otherwise a rather benign harmless enquiry.
Secondly, she is after all on a scholarship, that you can’t deny right? And no matter how much you dice and slice, a scholarship, even the partial ones, still offers significant financial reprieve. you cant discount this can you? So can she truly understand what it means, especially for a middle income family, to shoulder the burden of an incredulously high UK study fee?
Thirdly, I apologise, with my greatest sincerity, if my careless selection of words offended her, or anyone esle. I have never meant it to be so. But to mark me as condescending is way over the top. she in fact has responded with even greater condescension. I find her remark, “since you’re here begging”, highly insulting and I wonder whether there is a need to question the validity of my “middle incomeness”. Truth be told, my family earns a monthly income in the range of 3k to 4k. Of course that is my definition of a middle income family, and maybe her definition might have been more generous? Because with that kind of salary (my dad’s salary) I doubt her mother is able to “single-handledly” pay for all her sibling’s uk expenses. The fees are going to increase year by year. Fees are going to be my ultimate concern, no matter what. so advices that could teach me on the ways to mitigate cost saving etc would be more useful? As in, why did she tell me how her mother single handedly support her siblings’ education? Im not here to compare, its not a contest where we compare who is more qualified to be a middle income family or who is poorer or who is more “qualified” to complain about cost. The simplest advice I could ever ask for would be those that could inform me of how expensive London really is, how cost could be lowered (from personal experience) etc etc
I seriously don wanna turn this thread into a playground. Maybe I have been more of a nuisance than a harmless visitor. Im sorry I asked, because I am (thanks for your touching anecdote)way better off than you (my parents did not have to fund 2 uk education, unlike your mum) and so I shouldnt complain about cost in your turf because I am not qualified to do so. I am sorry for asking intangibles like “Value” of degree when all I had wanted was a voice of opinion, something that could be dispensed for free. Im sorry for irritating you by “begging” for answers, I should have known that free advice aint that cheap after all. Im really sorrie for asking a question at all, because like what i can say, I ain’t worthy of an answer at all..
Sorry, if ever it was so difficult to give an answer, then I would rather you not give. Like what I said, I would just bring my questions eslewhere. Sorry for all this trouble caused. Please accept my sincerest apology.
Oh. Thanks dominique for your advice, and thanks for explaining (on behalf of her) the possible reasons that had rankled her nerves.
Let me set the record straight. For “view is highly limited”, I did not mean it in a derogatory sense. And I certainly don’t want these few words to predominate what is otherwise a rather benign harmless enquiry.
Secondly, she is after all on a scholarship, that you can’t deny right? And no matter how much you dice and slice, a scholarship, even the partial ones, still offers significant financial reprieve. you cant discount this can you? So can she truly understand what it means, especially for a middle income family, to shoulder the burden of an incredulously high UK study fee?
Thirdly, I apologise, with my greatest sincerity, if my careless selection of words offended her, or anyone esle. I have never meant it to be so. But to mark me as condescending is way over the top. she in fact has responded with even greater condescension. I find her remark, “since you’re here begging”, highly insulting and I wonder whether there is a need to question the validity of my “middle incomeness”. Truth be told, my family earns a monthly income in the range of 3k to 4k. Of course that is my definition of a middle income family, and maybe her definition might have been more generous? Because with that kind of salary (my dad’s salary) I doubt her mother is able to “single-handledly” pay for all her sibling’s uk expenses. The fees are going to increase year by year. Fees are going to be my ultimate concern, no matter what. so advices that could teach me on the ways to mitigate cost saving etc would be more useful? As in, why did she tell me how her mother single handedly support her siblings’ education? Im not here to compare, its not a contest where we compare who is more qualified to be a middle income family or who is poorer or who is more “qualified” to complain about cost. The simplest advice I could ever ask for would be those that could inform me of how expensive London really is, how cost could be lowered (from personal experience) etc etc
I seriously don wanna turn this thread into a playground. Maybe I have been more of a nuisance than a harmless visitor. Im sorry I asked, because I am (thanks for your touching anecdote)way better off than you (my parents did not have to fund 2 uk education, unlike your mum) and so I shouldnt complain about cost in your turf because I am not qualified to do so. I am sorry for asking intangibles like “Value” of degree when all I had wanted was a voice of opinion, something that could be dispensed for free. Im sorry for irritating you by “begging” for answers, I should have known that free advice aint that cheap after all. Im really sorrie for asking a question at all, because like what i can say, I ain’t worthy of an answer at all..
Sorry, if ever it was so difficult to give an answer, then I would rather you not give. Like what I said, I would just bring my questions eslewhere. Sorry for all this trouble caused. Please accept my sincerest apology.
yonanz: Dude, you need to chill and stop being such a drama queen. Nothing you said offended me (or would be remotely capable of offending me), but I didn’t want to sugar coat my reply because I genuinely think you are fixating over something unimportant (re: uni prestige). You also now seem fixated with how, being a scholarship recipient, I apparently can’t “truly understand” what it’s like for your family to shoulder the UK fee burden – in which case, I ask again: if my view’s so “highly limited”, then why ask me in the first place?
Contrary to the hypersensitive spin you’ve put on my earlier advice, it was sincerely given, and meant to be wholly positive – first, that a good attitude and hard work will take you much further than the name of your law school, and second, that you can still have lots of fun in London on a budget. I don’t know how you jumped to the conclusion that I was “skeptical” that you belong to a middle income family. I just wanted to highlight that even if your family isn’t rich, it doesn’t mean you will have to spend 3 years in the UK with no fun. I’m sorry I don’t know whether my mum’s salary in the 80s and 90s was equivalent, or higher, or lower, than your dad’s, but I’m guessing it wasn’t a breeze to fund a combined total of 2 undergrad educations and a doctorate (at the sterling prices prevailing between 1987-1996). Nonetheless *it was possible*, and my siblings still managed to have a good time. I’m trying to give you hope, but you don’t seem to want it.
You’ve subsequently whined that I should have given you “financial advice” and tips on how to cut costs. Since your questions seemed focused on the effect of a law school’s name, I focused on that too. If you now want financial/cost-cutting advice, I invite any other readers to chip in because despite the help I’ve tried to give you so far, you seemed determined to take the worst possible interpretation of my intentions so further effort from me doesn’t seem worthwhile.
Lastly, although you have couched your most recent comment as a “sincerest apology”, the last two paragraphs are wallowing in melodrama and sarcasm. This is not the way to put yourself across as a future lawyer. Perhaps this decision is causing you a lot of stress, which is why you have reacted in such an overwrought way. Fair enough. Take a deep breath, sleep on it, and decide objectively (based on real fee figures and consulting the international students’ offices for up-to-date living cost estimates at the UK/Aussie unis you’re considering, plus also ask about your options to earn a bit by working in the student union shops etc.) whether your family’s finances can realistically handle a UK education. If it will be a big strain and you’ll feel unable to let yourself enjoy the non-academic parts of uni life, then it’s not worth it, and it is well worth considering a more balanced life in Australia.
Dominique: Alamak, you’ve already lived in London for 3 years lah – a lot of what I would tell a newbie will be really obvious to you. Free museums! Free gigs in the big music stores, very cheap gigs at lovely places like The Water Rats, The Spitz (might have closed though…sob), The Arts Cafe. The thing where the NT offers cheap tickets to loads of plays – 10 pound season? Standing tickets at the Globe in summer! Prince Charles cinema! All the parks! Lovely long walks just exploring – that alone is years’ worth of free fun. AAAAARRRRGHH I am so jealous that you’re there…and you don’t get my sympathy about the rent either, because that half of your salary you pay in rent is probably equivalent to all my salary or more.
Apart from Time Out (surely this is already mindboggling enough though?), maybe you can try looking for email newsletters from the current London event sites to subscribe to? Not sure if all the sites do this since I’ve never looked, but check at flavourpill, urban junkies, fridaycities, londonist.
Sadly, Spitz has now closed, which is a real shame. Rents just got too high now that Spitalfields is all gentrified. Flavourpill do have a good rundown of interesting stuff every week, some of it free, and they have competitions to get in free to places too. Urban Junkies used to be good but faded fast last year (though has been revamped so you never know). An ace venue to go to (and Time Out bang on about it a lot) is Luminaire in Kilburn. One of the nicest little concerts venues I have been to, and they have a varied and eclectic line up on.
I used to think very highly of that 10GBP season thing at the National Theatre. Since living in Sydney I’ve realised an evenings entertainment here very rarely costs more than $AUS25 on the door (the rough equivalent). And there’s a few free things going on in town (especially in the summer, I’m told) so even with all the great cheap stuff I know from 8 years in London, I’d still recommend Sydney for cost of living.
Other cities around both countries, I couldn’t say. But I’m with all of the above that there’s much more than the rep. of the school to worry about in terms of a successful career. My experience of employment in general is that your degree will get you an interview, and your attitude will get you a job. And a Cambridge degree in a poorly-written CV isn’t worth as much as a Leicester one in a well-written one. Don’t fret. If your family are hard-up (still not sure what middle-income means, but aware that UK is very expensive from a Singapore point of view) then that should be your main concern. If they can afford your time in the UK, and that’s where you want to be, go and don’t fret about it. It’s alright over there. The beaches in London are still rubbish though. If I can provide any more info on Sydney as a city, email me. I know nothing about the universities here though.
And it’s bad form to come to someone’s blog and have a go, even if you’re a bit hurt by what they said. It’s Michelle’s site, she can say what she likes, and I think you took it in the wrong tone anyway. Be nice – we’re all nice people here really.
Hey Matt,
Thanks for your advice. Any way to contact you?
To Michelle,
Will do. Thanks.
Sorry Yonanz – the site used to link to your email address, but I guess spambots stopped that happening. With that in mind, I’m on mharwood 62 At gmail dot com.
yonanz: I’ll take your lack of response to anything I said as an acknowledgement that you realize you were out of order.
To all the other commenters, thanks for mature, classy contributions.
What more should I say? What can I say? I mean, like what Matt has said, “It’s Michelle’s site, she can say what she likes.” Its your blog after all, and I really dont have much of an authority around here anyways. If perceiving my makes you happy and satisfied, then yes I acknowledge. I dont wanna argue anymore because this will go on ad infinitum, and with all due respect, were you not “out of order” as well?
Matt
Okie thanks man. I just discovered by chance that one of my fellow NSF is a UNSW grad, which is fantastic. I could do with some useful tips from him. Thanks anyway
Typo error in my previous comment. Its “if perceiving things in this way”, instead of “perceiving my”.
Anyway, Michelle, when I say sorry, I mean it. I know my comments may have offended you, and I am most regretful and apologetic because I have not intended it to be so. I dont intend to cop out of my mistakes.
But your reply was similarly distasteful and “out of order”. You may or may not agree, but the person whom your reply was directed at feels it that way. The blame game always points to both directions you know? The way you put it seems to me that you so badly wanted me to concede, whilst at the same time, you want to be absolved of your own responsibility over some of the distasteful remarks you have made.
I dont know. Maybe I was downright and uncontrovertibly wrong. And you, uncontrovertibly right. Who knows..but I dont feel it this way.
This comment thread is far too serious now. Hmm, how to change it?
Q: How do you make a cat go woof? A: A pint of petrol and a match should do it!
yonanz: It’s not about making me happy or satisfied. Someone throwing a tantrum in my blog comments is totally inconsequential to my happiness and wellbeing. You are incapable of offending me. I’m merely pointing out that there is a calm sensible way to discuss things and a hysterical immature way to discuss things. If you want to be a lawyer, you have to learn the first way. You don’t have to agree with everything I said, but it would have been appropriate to acknowledge that there were many more reasonable interpretations of what I had said than the one you chose to take.
Reading over my comment which initially set you off, I will say that I’m sorry if you took the word “begging” as being denigrating. I meant it more in the sense of “desperate for help”, though because I don’t find the word insulting at all (I use it a lot in relation to myself, also when I want to express that that I’m desperate for someone’s help), it didn’t occur to me to moderate the language. Other than that, I honestly can’t see anything else to apologize for because you took an absurdly negative interpretation of everything else I said. If the other commenters thought I was as mean as you have painted me out to be, they would have had no qualms about telling me so (except that they’d have done it in the calm, mature way).
Matt: I am seriously offended by your last comment, because I’d already heard that joke. Apologize and try again, please.
Q. What’s the difference between a piece of toast and a group of Frenchmen?
A. You can turn the piece of toast into soldiers.
Ok, well, I apologize if you felt I deliberately told you a joke you’d heard before, but I don’t think you have to take it that way. Anyway, there’s a mature, calm way of putting down a joke and then there’s one that involves a lot of capital letters and swearing. If you’re going to be a comedian you have to learn the second.
A man in an oxygen mask says to his nurse, “Nurse… are my… are my testicles black?” The nurse, embarrassed, replies “I’m only here to wash your chest and arms, sir”. “No, are my testicles black?” “Sir, really, I, er… it’s not for me to say”. “Are my testicles black?”
So the nurse gives in, lifts the bedsheets, moves a few things around and everything seems to be in order. “They seem to be fine, now can I get on with my job?”
“No, listen carefully,” this last bit takes a long time, with the breathing difficulties, and so he is being as clear as possible “…. Are my test results back?”.
Ah shit, I missed all teh intarnet drama!!!!11111.
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Homer: Look Marge, you don’t know what it’s like – I’m the one out there every day putting his ass on the line. And I’m not out of order. You’re out of order. The whole freakin’ system is out of order. You want the truth? You want the truth? You can’t HANDLE the truth. ‘Cause when you reach over and put your hand into a pile of goo that was your best friend’s face, you’ll know what to do. Forget it, Marge, it’s Chinatown.