Baaargain
Possibly the most awesome Ask Metafilter question ever: How many camels is my girlfriend worth?
Over here, we’re still trying to figure this whole wedding thing out, or at least figure out what the usual conventions are before we decide whether to follow them or not – who pays for what, who gives what to who, etc. Now although I understand there is a Chinese tradition that the bride’s family gives a dowry to the groom’s (to thank him for taking their worthless daughter off their hands, no doubt), this Middle Eastern custom definitely seems much better. Adapted for the Irish context, I believe I am worth at least ten sheep but will settle for five if they’re extra fluffy.
I think in the chinese tradition, the groom side has to gives some sort of “dowry” – jewellery i think (hah! probably so that the wife has some “insurance” in case the husband runs away!).
My brother’s in-laws asked for a (raw!) suckling pig, of which they are supposed to return to my family the head and bottom bits(yuk). My mum’s not so traditional Eurasion take on the tradition:-
Me: How are we supposed to bring it to them?
Mom: Your ang mo husband will have to present it – he’s the only one who can carry it. (David didn’t look too happy)
Me: Then what are we supposed to do with the ermm spare parts?
Mum: hmmm… make Devil Curry!
So, Alec will have to get James to bring a suckling pig to your parents I’m afraid. The good news is that you get to keep the belly portion!
In the chinese tradition, it’s the groom that has to give the bride’s family dowry…to thank her family for taking care of her all these while…
I’m pretty positive it’s not the other way round.
=p
So you are worth dollar sense, or the number of kgs in a pig apparently…which ever makes you happier!
MMMM. suckling peeg.
Incidentally, I had a friend who was travelling in Turkey. She was propositioned so often but they only offered her mother 6 camels in return for her hand in marriage. If a diplomat’s daughter is worth 20 camels, then my poor friend is quite poor thing then.
ANother friend who was similarly propositioned quickly told them she was a lesbian and grabbed on to her spunky-haired-to-the-point-of-looking-somewhat-butch sister for effect.
According to Wikipedia, the dowry’s given by bride’s family to groom’s.
But it’s all theoretical for me in any case, since I don’t have to follow any of it. Sorry Tessa, no suckling peeg! But if you’re really very disappointed by this, I can play Final Countdown at the afterparty and parade in with a piece of bak kwa.
I think Pei Ee’s “what ever makes you happier” is the best advice.
My father, upon hearing about the pig said that in HIS tradition (hokkien? peranakan? it confuses me sometimes), insisted that the bride’s family side should leave half way through the celebration dinner (something about respect for the groom’s family or other). At the end of the day, both sides dropped the idea of going traditional, settled on exchange of oranges, and got to enjoy their full 10 course dinner.
Btw, my mom and I towards the end of the dinner decided that the happy couple should have a “first dance” of sorts. Fortunately, there was a live band to spontaneously strike up a tune. Unfortunately, they played “Tennessee Waltz”.
Who cares what animal you slaughter for which side of the family. Someone tell me how to meet girls!
“According to Wikipedia, the dowry’s given by bride’s family to groom’s.
But it’s all theoretical for me in any case, since I don’t have to follow any of it. ”
Oh, so we’re back peddling now, are we? Myself, I feel it’s important to be sensitive to the customs of your forgotten Chinese ancestors. But I’m prepared to wave my right to livestock if you bind your feet.
When travelling in deepest darkest San Francisco, the Taxi driver taking us to the airport offered to take Esther off our hands, we must have looked a bit worried (i know Esther did)’cos he reassured us that he would look after Esther very well and would even bring her to McDonalds, which i think everyone agrees would seal most deals. I don’t recall how the negotiations ended but when i got out of the taxi Esther was still with me and the taxi driver went home alone.
Look Alec, Michelle read it on Wikipedia so it must be true.
If it’s the other way around then she’ll just have to come live over here in Ireland. Shipping us 10 pits of potatoes would cost us a fortune.
Wow. Late as usual, but congratulations Michelle and Alec!
I think its always the guys have to pay more for chinese tradition…..
Again, my only knowledge about Chinese wedding customs is based on whatever the Internet tells me, and it tells me the dowry’s paid by the bride’s family. But perhaps modern *Singaporean* Chinese marriage customs have evolved the opposite way?
Nami: Good thing Turkey is relatively liberal. In Iran it might be a more life-preserving strategy to agree to the marriage than pretend to be lesbian. That being said, the lesbian strategy is certainly one that I could use easily with my usual haircut. Except that no one’s ever propositioned me apart from Alec.
Brian: Anyone who said he would bring me to McDonalds would have had me at hello. In fact, he’d have had Alec at hello too. Remember that news story a while back about a white trash couple who held their wedding at McDonalds? We were like, hmmm…
LMD: Thanks, and hey, better late than never! :)
congratulations Mich (hedgehog!) & Alec. Late, I know, but I seldom read blogs. =D Still in Zurich, but on to your chinese wedding woes.
Traditionally (I must emphasize, in our diluted times, everything is up for negotiation), there’s two sides to the dowry.
1) The dowry the groom/his family pays, comes in the form of an agreed amount with the bride’s family, or gifts, or he can agree to pay for the whole wedding cost. Yes, that means the groom pays for the wedding dinner (that whole yam seng she-bang), and the number of tables the bride’s family requests for/settle upon. Big conflict area here possible. But the idea behind this is an acknowledgement of the time, effort and expense that the bride’s family has put in to raise the girl.
In our times now, the girl’s family can share the cost too, or the wedding couple themselves pay for it. The reason for the former is not so pleasant in some families I’ve seen – basically the bride’s family does not want to “lose face”, so “tops up” the amount the groom pays. =( Other times, its a genuine intent to help the bridal couple.
2) The bride’s dowry (given by the bride’s family), can be summarised as furnishings for the bridal chamber/home (except the bed – the bed has to be given by the male), so this includes your jewellery, utensils etc. There’re pre-requisite items there which include lamps, a chamber pot *chuckles*, bedspreads etc – I cannot remember, but if you want, I can ask my mom. My cousin recently got married, that’s how I know…
3) just to clarify on the peeg, which somehow seems to be receiving a lot of attention: it is given by the male side to the bride’s family – and I thought it is cooked btw. Whatever will you do with a live pig running around? You’re to return the head and the tail portion to symbolise the beginnings and endings which all things have. So the focus is not on keeping the belly alone, delicious though it may be.
4) Personally, I think the customs you may want to keep are:
a) the hair combing – four times, by a fortunate woman (usually your mom). This is usually guaranteed to bring tears all around though. The first combing symbolizes “from beginning to end.” The second combing means “harmony from youth through old age.” The third combing is a wish for many grandchildren. The fourth combing offers hope for wealth and a marriage that lasts a long, long time.
b) tea ceremony
c) sisters bargaining session (the one where your hens from the previous night run riot making the groom prove his love, and his stag brothers aid him in defense =D)
d) a simplified gift exchange with the main items (yes, I’d drop the wedding dinner =D).
At least, these would be the ones I’d keep if I ever got as lucky as you. =)
Simplicity, the essence of the closing of a chapter, and the beginning of another.
All the best to both of you. Whatever you decide, just remember it is merely a start.
Hi Edith,
Thanks for the thorough guide on Chinese wedding traditions. I’ve been getting advice from all quarters on auspicious days and on how to appease pesky spirits. I suspect we are starting on the wrong foot by looking for wedding dates during the Hungry Ghost Month. But so much availability lah.
At my wedding I’m not so worried about my family losing face but rather preventing them from getting shit faced. (i.e. drunk)
Thanks everyone for the well wishes. They kept me in high spirits during the run up to my exams. I’m trying to respond to all of my emails but am finding that a lot of my spare time is being used up as I’m dragged from one potential wedding venue to the next and have lists with strange names trust on me. (And there was me thinking that I had the hard bit of the wedding arrangements accomplished.)
But I’ll quit bellyaching and respond to a few questions.
Bee Bee can still be found in a small provision shop on the corner of Amoy Street and Robinson Road.
Benny – Yes, the DVD was originally sourced through you. But quit trying to steal my thunder.
James – I may be the brother with the crap handwriting but I’m still the one who’s engaged. Your use of the word of pwns goes a long way towards explaining why. thorough
welcome, Alec,
prevent family members from getting drunk?
serve tea.
i don’t think you could actually get a wedding venue this year – most places in Singapore are booked a year in advance, what more with auspicious dates.
but in general, yes, do try to avoid the 7th month – its a double hungry ghost month this year, think most elderly relatives would frown on it quite badly. but having said that, there are days within the month where it is still ok apparently… but get thee to a temple or something to consult a proper person =)
Edith: Am honoured that while you’re in Zurich you’re still sparing the time to write all this advice! I really appreciated the thoughtful summary you gave, and learned a whole lot I didn’t know before.
Unfortunately I must confess that I find myself totally unable to relate to any Chinese wedding traditions. They have nothing to do with how I grew up, or what my family does. Our weddings are jolly Eurasian affairs where no one cares about “face” or “hungry ghosts” as long as there’s music to dance to and a good time for all. I really can’t think of a single relative who the Chinese traditions would matter to so I would get married during Hungry Ghosts month without a second thought, unless it also affected Singaporean guests’ willingness to attend.
I agree that the hair-combing tradition sounds quite beautiful and meaningful, and if I were there while this was done for a girlfriend I’m sure I’d cry buckets, but it would be really comical for me given that there’s not enough hair on my head for my mother to comb through! The second combing would have to stop at wishing me “harm”!
Alec: Dude. Unless our local pool hall counts as a wedding venue, you’ve not been dragged anywhere. Hmmm. Actually, getting married in the pool hall would be quite fun, although the symbolism of the pool cue, balls and holes might be a bit too much for my mum.
As much as you both insist “I ain’t afraid of no ghosts” I hope you’ll do the sensible thing and rent an Ectomobile.
Anybody else love the term “our diluted times”? Interesting post there Edith.
thanks James.
Despite the lighthearted tone of her post, I *divined* a wee bit of lost-ness in mich; given this was the lass who didn’t know what her Chinese name meant =D, thought it may be helpful to inject something about the peeg and all.
But the bulk of our discussion is offline now (mainly consisting of me recommending hip and classy places, and her veto-ing them all), so who knows, the way this goes, you may get the first ever wedding at Newton Hawker Centre.
James: An Ectomobile will be disastrous if we don’t manage to lose weight by the wedding date – the vehicle’s Marshmallow Man detectors may automatically activate.
Edith: And I appreciate the thoughtfulness very much. :) But Newton Hawker Centre also cannot, it’s still too hip being near Orchard Road and all. Old Airport Road Hawker Centre has better food, lower prices, and it’s even been newly renovated! Alternatively, we can have a supper wedding at Geylang. Got “ballroom” some more.
hey Michelle – are u [or your girlfriends] planning on making Alec go through the hurdles and obstacles test before he “receives” u? :)
BTW – in Indian traditions then do the brides’ family give dowry to the grooms’ families.
Funnily – when I was in Dubai for a trade show this April, I managed to gather quite a few propositions from the Middle Eastern men – one even offering me 14 camels! I think the offer of how many camels co-relates to the size of the female and being a sized L in Singapore/Asia, and an M in other parts of the world – i think 14 camels means I really have to go on a diet!:D
*hides away my ben&jerry ice-cream*
hey Michelle – are u [or your girlfriends] planning on making Alec go through the hurdles and obstacles test before he “receives” u? :)
BTW – in Indian traditions then do the brides’ family give dowry to the grooms’ families.
Funnily – when I was in Dubai for a trade show this April, I managed to gather quite a few propositions from the Middle Eastern men – one even offering me 14 camels! I think the offer of how many camels co-relates to the size of the female and being a sized L in Singapore/Asia, and an M in other parts of the world – i think 14 camels means I really have to go on a diet!:D
*hides away my ben&jerry ice-cream*